of Orthodox Christianity, several things lash out at me, as if I were a post and the words were a whip.
First, much of the blog “worship” is focused upon Mary, the mother of Jesus. Try a Google search yourself – Orthodox blog Mary vs Orthodox Blog Jesus. A statistical tie. Very weird to me, a Southern Baptist cradle person. Cradle is an Orthodox term for someone born into the “true” faith vs converts to the “true” faith. Perhaps more on that later. Now, I can see that we (as American Protestants) have not given enough thought or respect to Mary as we should. Perhaps this is the purpose of my search?
On the other hand, women are basically non-existent in this world. I’m still researching but from what I have read thus far (20+ hours?), I have no idea of what women in Orthodoxy do except support the men. Now, being a good Southern Baptist cradle person, no one can say that I’m a feminist in church matters. But it seems to me that women have played and continue to play a vital role in the Church. What really puzzles me is the focus upon Mary given the seeming disregard for women in Orthodoxy.
And then we come to the hierarchical system. Why, pray tell, is there a specification for how we should kiss the hand of the priest (right over left, palms up, let priest put his hand in yours, then kiss, I think)? Or give authority over to succeeding levels of men? To be sure, the Orthodox tenets that I have read thus far shout loud and far that the Pope should not have been given status as infallible. Yet in all matters Orthodox, the buck stops with their version of the Pope. Why?
And last for this post, why do all of the evangelical attempts I’ve seen focus exclusively upon other Christians? Bringing them home is a popular theme. Well, what about those multitudes that have never even heard of Christ? Or seen a Christian example? Should we just forget about them? Every single “conversion” post I’ve read is a call to others to convert. Other Christians that is. To “come home”.
I readily admit that there a a bunch of good things to read out there, else I would’ve stopped at the prescription for kissing the priests hand. And there is a certain allure to mysticism, secrets (remember Fred and Barney’s secret handshake?) and becoming “true”. And I’ll keep reading because I’m learning an awful lot. But thus far I’m not learning much about the “true church”.
Fr. Stephen Freeman says
I could not help replying, your site came up by reference on my blog. I’m glad you’re researching Orthodoxy, but you obviously have some misconceptions. Women clearly have as much role in Orthodoxy as do Southern Baptist women (I was raised a Southern Baptist). They do not serve in the altar or preach, and I don’t think they do that in most Southern Baptist Churches, either. But they teach in many other venues, lead choirs, and take many other roles in the Church. They may serve on the parish governing council (which they may not do in Baptist circles).
Mary is honored, but never to the detriment of worhsip of Christ, who alone is the son of God. Mary is only a human being among us. Though she is the mother of the incarnate Word of God we do not think her to be more than human. In Baptist parlance the language we use to refer to her is not very understandable, be we understand what we mean.
As to customs like priest’s hand kissing and the like, things we consider of very minor interest, it makes sense that if you wish to ridicule Orthodoxy you might major in such things. That is simply noting different cultural differences, not doctrinal issues. If you wish to ridicule Orthodoxy, cultural differences are a good place to start.
But Baptist seem very strange to Orthodox, particularly to those from the Old World. Our new world customs seem as strange to them as they would to Jesus.
If you want to learn about Orthodoxy, for God sakes, get off the internet. It’s shallow and lousy. Read Kallistos Wares, penguin classic, The Orthodox Church, or Thomas Hopko’s The Orthodox Faith. Do some work, not just dipping into the internet and fullfulling your own prejudices. Read St. Johh of Damascus The Orthodox Faith and you’ll have done yourself the favor of reading the summary of Christianity as understood in the 7th to 8th centuries.
Don’t use modern Baptist practice as a measure of much else. By comparison, it is merely American and culturally bound. Orthodoxy is not your enemy, but the friend of all who love Christ and the faith. It has produced more martyrs than every other group combined. For the honor of their blood alone, read and speak very carefully. Christ treats His martyrs with great honor.
Fr. Stephen Freeman
Bigjolly says
Hi, thanks for your reply, even if it was a bit testy. I did not mean to ridicule Orthodoxy at all and after reading most of the entries in your Orthodixie, it seems rather odd to me that you would think so. But, as you say, things are as they are.
It is doubtful that I could disagree more with you on the value of the Internet. It is neither shallow nor lousy, although it can be either if you choose. The real value in research lies not in the hypothetical but in the reality. The tomes you mention may well outline the faith and as such are worthy of investigation once you climb over the first wall of separation, which is of course the practitioners of Orthodoxy. To base one’s knowledge of Orthodoxy on those resources alone would be the same as reading the Southern Baptist Faith and Message and then watching a Southern Baptist neighbor and wondering why they were such hypocrites. I find that it is much more productive to listen to a broad spectrum of people practicing a particular faith. Which of course is what the Internet and blogs are very good at (not to discount academic research on the net) even if they tend to be skewed to the more dogmatic side of an argument.
As I take this approach to Orthodox Christianity, several things strike me about the practitioners. First and foremost is my impression that these are the very types of people that Jesus came to free humanity from. And that does not mean that I disrespect the martyrs that you mention at all. It does mean that today’s practitioners seemingly want to bind us to the strict codes of behavior that faced Jews in the first century. Again, this statement is based upon the actions of those that put their views into the public arena that is the Internet. A “my way or the highway” mentality.
Second, I cannot help but notice an attitude of superiority rooted in your claim to be the one and only Truth. It reminds me very much of the parable of Jesus recorded in Luke 18:9-14 about the Pharisee and the tax collector. Not only in the lesson on humility contained therein but also in the main theme of the parable, in that the Pharisee thinks that we can achieve heaven if others will only do what he does and not purely by Christ alone.
Third, the focus of, again, the practitioners today is, for the vast majority, on the conversion of other sects of Christianity and not on the unsaved of the world. This is one that may not compute because of my upbringing. Did Christ not command us to share the Good News? Is the sense of superiority mentioned above so strong that it negates the need to witness to the unsaved and focus on the mis-guided?
I could go on with this but that isn’t and hasn’t been the point to my search. If I were completely satisfied in my own faith, my search could stop and I could sit by the river fishing. Alas, that hasn’t happened and I suspect that it may never. So should I stop searching and dismiss the Orthodox way simply because it is early in the journey and a priest has smacked me down? Of course not. The Word is sharper than a two-edged sword and will help me regardless of the reception I receive.
Thanks again, Dave
Fatherstephen says
Dave,
Please forgive if I came across in a superior fashion. I do not mean to. Orthodoxy is only obeying the commandment of Christ in our efforts to reach out to all Christ, that we all may be one. We do not confess ourselves as the One, True Church out of arrogance (we equally confess our own sinfulness and lack) but to confess that, by Scriptural definition, the Church can only be One and not Two (that is also in the Creed). And to say that historically, the Orthodox Church is indeed identical with that One Church founded by Christ, regardless of its many struggles.
We are deeply engaged in sharing the good news outside of Christian lands, with a vigorous mission in Africa and in Siberia, where many non-Christians still dwell. There are many missions in Muslim lands (some of which were once Orthodox lands) and we do not cease to witness there.
I contend that the internet is not very representative, even though I choose to maintain a blog. It’s not a good source because it can easily be a place where the noisiest, the least mature and least trained are as capable of establishing a website as the next man. Many engage in the internet because they cannot do anything else. In that sense, it becomes very false.
There is much good, and much that I could point someone to. But if you want to know Orthodoxy, it’s services and the reality on the ground, rather than in the internet-sphere is still the most reliable.
I apologize for any way Orthodox on the internet are poor representatives of Jesus Christ (myself included). May God be glorified in all things.