I think that, if you step back from the initial inclination to shout NO!, that the question is quite intriguing. Can the Creator of all be rebuked by the created?
I pose the question in response to an answer by Father Stephen in the comments section to his post, The Atonement – It’s Still About God. In his answers to the questioners about his thoughts, he states that Christ was reluctant to defend the actions of the Old Testament God. Further clarifying his thought, he says later that if God commanded someone to kill, he would say that it was wrong.
So there is the source of my question. Can God be wrong? Hmm. I’ll have to ponder that one awhile. I have not found Father Stephen to be flippant or anything less than serious when discussing his faith.
Fr. Stephen says
December 14, 2006 at 4:28 pmGod cannot be wrong – but Christ clearly corrects certain matters of the Old Testament when speaking to His disciples. See Luke 9:55 and the passage around it to see Christ correcting his disciples of a wrong understanding of the OT. Reading the Old Testament, for Christians, is not nearly as straightforward as some seem to treat it. The NT clearly reinterprets it. Jesus says, “Ye read the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life, but these are they that testify of me” (Jn 5:39). Thus Christ is the key to interpreting the OT. Many Christians think they can read the OT as if Christ has not come. We have to read it understanding that everything in the OT speaks of Christ. Only in that sense would I dare to correct something, meaning, to correct an understanding that is not Christocentric. If God commands something in the OT that is contrary to Christ, then, as a Christian, I need to read it in some manner other than literally. That is, I think, the ancient Christian practice.
Bigjolly says
December 14, 2006 at 6:49 pmFr. Stephen, thank you for your reply. I am beginning to understand how Orthodoxy re-interprets the canon, but I must admit that I remain confused by your statement. Did I mis-interpret your statement?
Are you saying that the question itself is in error (the “it” of your response)? I interpreted your response to mean that even if God commanded it, you say that it is still wrong.
Fr. Stephen says
December 18, 2006 at 11:48 amTheoretically, if God commands something it could not be wrong. But this becomes like the seminarian’s brain-teaser. God is not an abstract, but has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, such that we can know Him. Knowing Him, we can say that He would not command us to kill.
Interestingly, in the Orthodox Church (and these are quite ancient canons) if someone kills (in war, in defense of his family’s home, or even accidentally) he still acknowledges his sin before God and accepts penance (usually a time without communion). A man who has taken a human life, in any circumstance, may not be ordained to the priesthood (though Bishops may grant permission for various reasons). But we don’t put later exceptions on the commandment “Thou shalt not kill.” You may feel the need to do it to defend your home, but when it’s over, you can’t walk away from it as if nothing bad had taken place. And this agrees with human experience as well. Soldiers coming home from war, though the war may be as just as possible, still do not feel easy about the lives they have taken. There is a need for forgiveness.
God has commanded, “Thou shalt not kill.” Does God change His commandments?
Bigjolly says
December 18, 2006 at 1:27 pmFr Stehpen, I’ll need to think about this further because the obvious answers are too easy.
The first obvious answer is that the commandment doesn’t say, Thou Shalt not Kill, it says, Thou Shalt not Murder, meaning of course the taking of innocent life, as you surely know. So, I’ll have to try and figure out what you mean.
The example you have of the Orthodox not allowing anyone that has killed to be a priest eliminates the apostle Paul from consideration as a priest in your church. Again, you already know this, so I must spend some time thinking about it to understand your view.
No, I do not think that God changes His commandments. One thing that puzzles me is how much of the Bible do you (Orthodoxy) think is historical vs. allegorical/metaphorical? I ask that after your treatise on Psalm 137 being not about what it says it is about but is instead about crushing the little sins against the rock of Christ (and yes, I can absolutley see the Psalmist wishing to see his enemies offspring smashed against the rocks).
Thanks, Dave
Bigjolly says
January 3, 2007 at 8:58 amFr. Stephen, I have contemplated your thought on this for over 2 weeks now, searching through my library for any help. And I still cannot understand your point. I have found very little Orthodox resources that expound upon this in a clear, concise way. What I have found in the Orthodox resources I have perused has been much deep thought and abstract thinking upon one another’s deep thought and abstract thinking. In other words, it seems to me that most Orthodox theologians comment about other theologians and not about the canon itself. Making it very difficult to follow them without going through the layers of thought all the way back to the first point in the line, which, apparently, exists only in tradition. Confusing to me.
So for now, I’ll just thank you for bringing up the subject and making me think. And stick to the simple, straightforward answers – do not take innocent life (although I find I’m not as “sure” of the death penalty as I was) and yes, Paul could be a preacher in my church.